Interview with Ray Foulk & Caroline Foulk, authors of When the World Came to the Isle of Wight: Stealing Dylan From Woodstock

Author Ray Foulk

Author Caroline Foulk

Today I'm very pleased and very excited to bring you the following interview with Ray and Caroline Foulk, authors of the fantastic new book When the World Came to the Isle of Wight, Volume 1: Stealing Dylan From Woodstock. I reviewed the book earlier this year and Ray and Caroline were kind enough to answer my questions regarding the second Isle of Wight Festival in 1969, what is was like booking Bob Dylan for the festival, and much, much more. Before we begin, how about a little background on the authors?

Ray Foulk, now based in Oxford, has fostered many passions since his early days as a promoter. After the dizzy heights of the Isle of Wight Festivals and stadium events in London, the Foulk brothers were head-hunted by the Milton Keynes Development Corporation to help plan the leisure content of their new city. Through this, Ray brought the inventor/scientist/designer Buckminster Fuller to the project, embraced his environmentalism, and eventually trained as an architect himself at the University of Cambridge. Combining design, education, and promotion he spent much of the nineties and noughties as an environmental campaigner, and led the ambitious in-schools project, Blue Planet Day, rekindling the satisfaction, and more, that the festivals had brought to his youth. Recent years have been dominated by environmental architecture and writing.

Caroline Foulk has worked with her father, Ray, for many years, researching, writing, and co-promoting the schools environmental project, Blue Plant Day. Recently, together they have completed a screenplay for the cinema about the invention of modern art. Caroline trained and worked as a teacher and lives in Oxford with her husband and three children.

RNRChemist: First off, can you give us a bit of background on you? How did you come to settle on the Isle of Wight? What year was that and what were the circumstances? How did you like living there?

RF: After the relatively sudden death of my father in 1956 it was no longer practical for my mother to keep up a large house in Derbyshire with 5 young children to bring up. We moved to the Island because my Uncle already had property there. Also my aging grandmother lived there. It suited Uncle Ronald to encourage Mother to move.We were disappointed in some respects with the island, especially the house we relocated to, which was parochial and small compared to the amazing mansion house we left behind. Sutton Rock had seemed such a marvel to my father’s family who had lived for generations as coal miners. I think we had an overall general feeling of immense loss, but the seaside was a plus.

RNRChemist: What was the impetus for you and your brothers to decide to stage the first festival in 1968? Why did you decide to do that?

RF: We put on the first IOW festival because my brother Ronnie got involved in raising funds for a local charity – IWISPA, whose remit was to raise money for an indoor swimming pool for the IOW.

RNRChemist: That first festival seems to be the forgotten one of the three you promoted...looking back on it, what are your thoughts on it?

RF:  The first festival seems almost a little embarrassing in retrospect. Although it was put on with a degree of professionalism, the stubble field was painful to sit on and we made wild claims about the national significance of the event, for instance we put it about that the Beatles would attend, (little did we know that they really would come the following year). We were disappointed that only about 10,000 attended. My brother Bill had assured us of the importance of Jefferson Airplane, Arthur Brown and the various underground bands. The island felt like a hopeless place for events.

RNRChemist: What did you have to go through to get Jefferson Airplane to headline that first one? How was their performance?

RF:  My brother Ronnie had to keep plugging away for Jefferson Airplane. He was casting around for any big names really. He had little knowledge of the contemporary scene and was turned down many times. He had no track record as a promoter and had to rely on his abilities as a salesman to finally convince the Clayman Agency that we were really serious contenders able to host an event worthy of an international band like Jefferson Airplane.

When it came to playing the Airplane were on form. Although it was freezing cold they brought rock genius into the night and lifted everybody’s spirits. They made everything seem worthwhile even though their light show was constrained by the dusty conditions.

RNRChemist: When you decided to plan the festival for the following year, what sort of things did you feel you needed to improve upon from 1968?

RF:  The IOW festival ‘mark one’ had seemed makeshift in many ways. We definitely wanted to make our festival-goers more welcome and comfortable – to go bigger and better in every way. It was important that we found a decent grassy site with proper facilities. Probably the biggest difference was that we styled it a ‘Camping festival’, which was unusual at this time. Because we were on an island we wanted people to have enough time to travel. Trench type toilets were replaced by cubicles and we appointed staff, often friends, to different departments overseeing every aspect of festival necessities. Everything was more designed from the tickets, to the programmes, posters etc. to the stage. We tried to address everything with excellence.

RNRChemist: Why Dylan? What made him your top choice as headliner for the second festival? Did you think you had a realistic shot at booking him? Was it more a "shoot for the moon" type thing?

RF:  It was obvious that we needed the biggest names to draw people across the water. Jefferson Airplane hadn’t been able to do this – the task of finding somebody with enough clout seemed daunting. Dylan really was the holy grail in 1969, he had acquired a god-like status due to his influence upon a whole generation. He was more than an ordinary musician, whether he liked it or not.

RNRChemist: I'm assuming you were expecting to be turned down outright by Dylan's management when you first called? What was your reaction when they didn't immediately say "no?"

RF:  I don’t think we set out believing that we had a chance to get Dylan. The fact that Dylan’s management didn’t dismiss us out of hand was a green light to us. We resorted to scheming over what might make the difference, bearing in mind that we had very few resources at all.

RNRChemist: Can you describe in more detail what the process was like for dealing with Block and Grossman as you warmed Bob up to the idea of coming to the island?

RF:  We had less dealings with Al Grossman than with Bert Block owing to the demise of the Dylan-Grossman contract. Dylan was in the process of distancing himself from Grossman. During my visit to New York for the signing when I dined with Grossman and the lawyers almost immediately at a Chinese restaurant (something I’d never experienced before). And after the signing when we visit Grossman’s flat at Gramercy Park. It was there that Al skinned up a joint to celebrate the deal (to my alarm). Al was like a presence but not so much involved. He came to the festival with Michael Lang and seemed more interested in seeing the Who than Dylan.

 I mostly dealt with Grossman’ partner, Bert Block. We developed a good rapport, over the phone initially.  Sometimes Bert wrong-footed me. When he said ‘bring the dollars’ (in preparation for my trip to meet Dylan) I really had to think about what he meant. I looked after him whenever he visited the Island. I made it my mission to make sure Bert was okay and therefore Dylan was okay. Bert seemed a really good old timer, kind of avuncular, though he probably wasn’t that old in reality. I recall I scared Bert a couple of times with my driving, but he always had faith in our abilities as promoters. As for the process of dealing with Block and Grossman it was pretty smooth, apart from Rikki Farr’s little indiscretion. They were decent, friendly and business-like. We knew we had to present ourselves in a business-like way at all times, especially in order to surmount our youthfulness and it paid off.  I had too much to think about to be too overawed by their stature as managers.

RNRChemist: How was it traveling to New York to meet with Dylan and his management? Can you describe how that whole trip went?

RF:  Travelling to New York was a lot of fun. I hadn’t been abroad before of course. Once I had my passport, visa and the guarantees for at least most of the performance fees I could almost sit back and enjoy the ride. A downside was Rikki and his antics. He was a loose cannon and wont to step in claiming he was the organiser, which he patently wasn’t, as well as louse things up, but I had the benefit of his demeanour as a bonafide show producer. We needed to be a convincing duo and Rikki certainly helped.

RNRChemist: After you got Bob, how did you guys feel? I'm guessing it was relief mixed with the immediate pressure of "now how are we gonna make sure it all goes smoothly?

RF:  Securing Dylan was unbelievable but the time period (5 weeks) between him signing and the festival itself was so short that there was really no time to do anything but get organised as rapidly as possible. Ticket sales were the priority. We had to raise enough cash to meet the contracts and build a city. But it wasn’t like a relief it was more euphoric than that. 

RNRChemist: Why choose Dylan? Why not the Beatles, Stones, Hendrix, someone else? What about Bob made you want to go for him above all others?

RF:  Dylan was a way bigger draw than the Stones or Hendrix at this point. The Beatles would have measured up to Dylan but they were in the process of their break up and hadn’t played live in eons.  Elvis’s name even came up, but we couldn’t imagine him playing in a field.  We were after one of the big three. Dylan was the only viable option. It’s easy to underestimate how big Dylan was at this time.

RNRChemist: You mention that you and your brothers weren't promoters, you were businessman...how did that gibe with trying to put on these massive festivals?

RF:  Although we were businessmen rather than promoters I was pretty heavily into some of the issues of the time and was active with the IOW CND and labour party. In fact I set up a CND group in the West Wight. So although I was making a living in business my heart was with the counterculture.  The same is true of my brother Bill who was a student at the Royal College of Art. It’s true that my musical education was lacking at the time of the first festival. Bill was easily able to point us in the right direction groups-wise. But it suited us well to have a business-like approach to the festivals.  The organisation of the two large events was very complementary from the viewpoint of those that mattered, ie. the health authorities, police and bulk of the audience. It just wouldn’t have been possible to host such large numbers without a budget, plan, capable staff and their departments, at least not without creating a disaster area.

RNRChemist: You mention that you were a late convert to Dylan and weren't necessarily a huge rock fan at the time...what were your listening habits like in the 1960s? Did they change after putting on these three festivals?

RF:  My musical taste changed dramatically. Above all I persisted with Dylan and soon became a genuine fan. We were fully incentivized to get familiar with as much current music as we could find the time to listen to it. It was soon flooding in too with demos coming at us from all quarters. Before this time I was a Johnny Cash fan, I liked the Beatles, trad jazz and knew about (by then) old hat stars like Adam Faith and Billy Fury.

RNRChemist: Can you give us a little flavor into how it was organizing this massive festival out of your house, and with 1960s technology to boot! I'd bet most young people today couldn't even imagine how much harder it was than it would be now.

RF:  In some ways organising the massive Dylan festival was easier than it might be nowadays. We had less technology available, but those were the days when the fixed line telephone really worked. People tended to answer reliably and it was easier to make contact even with celebrities. In the case of going above people’s head a person-to-person call would often do the trick. Social media nowadays can take up a lot of time and work. Being restricted to largely paper publications, telephone, radio and television for advertising actually meant concentrating on the job would have been easier in some ways. We employed messengers to deal with some of tasks now taken care of by email and text. Conditions at Mother’s house were hardly consistent with a world-class rock festival but we did make use of a suite of rooms on the upper floor, which became workable office space. Of course dining tables doubled as desks etc. as far as furniture was concerned. Mother was fairly self-contained in a separate wing of the house, but would help on occasion by answering international phone calls in the middle of the night, or providing voluminous quantities of good home cooked food for whoever might be staying.

RNRChemist: What were some of the most difficult parts of the entire festival for you in terms of planning and execution?

RF:  Raising funds was always the most problematic planning issue from the moment that Dylan agreed to sign especially in the early stages when potential backers just really wouldn’t believe that an event headed up by Dylan would happen. Without funds nothing could happen smoothly, but once Dylan had signed of course tickets were selling like lightening, which freed us up to concentrate on other vital matters like building the arena and finding Dylan and co. places to stay. One of the hairiest moments was when Dylan disembarked from the QUEII following his son‘s accident on board. Everything was riding on Dylan’s appearance. We suddenly realised how vulnerable we were.

RNRChemist: What was it like meeting the Beatles and other titans of the music world in 1969?

RF:  It was quite surreal meeting famous people like the Beatles and other rock titans but to be honest I wasn’t interested in hanging around such people too much. There were plenty of others ready to do that. We were so consumed by the operation at hand that you could only take it in your stride. We were there to do a job and we had to concentrate hard on the necessities of keeping the thing together.

RNRChemist: What was Dylan like as a person? How about George Harrison? The other Beatles? The Who? Other rock musicians you met at the festival?

RF:  My first impression of Dylan was that he was quite shy, probably shyer than me even. He was very ordinary, a regular down to earth kind of guy, polite and well spoken. He was dressed in jeans and a leather jacket and I suppose he appeared smaller than I expected, not that he is especially small but anyone with that big a name you kind of imagine to be larger.

George had all eyes for Dylan and clearly set about resuming the relationship he had been building with him after he had visited the Dylan’s home some months before. I enjoyed very much standing there and listening to them harmonizing beautifully to some Everly Brothers hits. That was a truly special moment, like a private concert.

The Beatles were very charming and seemed relaxed either hanging out at the farmhouse or backstage. They were keen on talking between themselves and were apologetic, saying that they didn’t get much chance to talk shop. John and Yoko were quite clingy as I remember.

The Who? We developed a good relationship with them which continued after the 1969 and 1970 festivals with Rock at the Oval in 1971. It has been said that the Isle of Wight gigs were the events of the Who’s career, which I’d be inclined to agree with. They could only have been pleased by their performance, reception, everything worked like a dream for them.

RNRChemist: What was your relationship like with your two brothers, Ronnie and Bill? How about with Rikki Farr? He certainly seemed to have had a knack for saying the wrong thing at a most inopportune time!

RF:  The relationship between my brother Ronnie and I had always been close and inevitably under the circumstances we pulled together. Ronnie is a visionary. I would endeavour to bring in to reality whatever the latest idea was. We worked well as a team and developed ideas together around the clock. Our brother Bill was younger and away at the Royal College of Art some of the time. He was a very important advisor to key decisions such as what acts to go for, what type of festival we were putting on aside from his general duties on site and stage design.

Rikki was a mixed blessing. He was loud, gregarious and amiable. We had a good working relationship with him though he could be unruly. He would breeze in from his Portsmouth menswear shop as something of a VIP but he really wasn’t around on the Island that much. Most of his input came to the fore at the festival itself. He could be a liability in terms of saying the wrong thing, at other times he was able to pull us out of a difficult spot and had valuable experience to add to our credibility.  It was said that he took after his boxer father using his mouth like other people use their fists!

RNRChemist: How did you feel about things heading into the moment when the festival was actually about to start? Confident? Nervous? Terrified? All of the above?

RF:  There were so many balls to keep in the air there was barely time to think about whether we felt nervous or terrified.  In reality there were moments of feeling overawed by the event – like the first time stepping on to the stage at Woodside Bay and seeing that immense crowd – that was quite something.

RNRChemist: Who were your favorite acts from the entire weekend?

RF:  Dylan was the favourite act for me that weekend. It was only during his set that I really sat down in the wings and listened without distraction. The Bonzo Dog Band were certainly amusing as I recall, The Band were stunning and Gary Farr did well. There were many great moments.  Ronnie was really excited about the Who, though sadly he heard them only from a great distance away.

RNRChemist: What was it like to see a crowd that size? How do you remember them? Overall, were they well behaved?

RF: Generally the crowd was well behaved (with certain exceptions like towards Mr and Mrs Thackham, with their bungalow adjacent to the stage, or suffered a minor insult). We never expected otherwise. In fact there was earnestness in the demeanour of most folks, like they really came to hear the music – that was what they were there for.  Generally nobody stood up during the acts. Etiquette was that you would sit and refrain from obscuring the view of your brother or sister in front of you. Otherwise you might find yourself pelted with coke cans.

RNRChemist: What was going through your head when the Band were delayed for a couple of hours and Dylan was getting antsy?

RF: We were not overly worried about the delay to see Dylan. It wasn’t as if the crowd was going anywhere and 10pm would have been a rather early finish. Of course it did cut out the likelihood of Dylan playing on longer, which would have been a bonus and certainly knocked out the possibility of a jam with the Beatles or Stones. Of course that was never really going to happen anyway. We were most aware of the discomfort and general scrimmaging in the press arena. We didn’t really intrude on Dylan during his preparations so we weren’t really too aware of his level of discomfort.

RNRChemist: Dylan's set: your thoughts? How do you think it went down then, and how do you feel about now with hindsight (and being able to listen to it in full via his recent release of it)?

RF:  I enjoyed Dylan’s set immensely. Sure he was different.  He sounded for the first time like he could really sing well. It was a well-constructed set, the Band were perfect in sync with what he was doing.  There were quiet moments and raucous moments. It was great music. The digital release of recent times bears out the quality of the gig and it is a joy to hear it in its remastered form. The audience listened attentively rather than reacted in raptures and calls for encores continued for 20 minutes. There is no doubt that he was well received. For all those expecting the wired rock poet of 1966 they would have been disappointed. Dylan had leapt ahead in with his stage persona. Many were left behind wondering where the old Dylan was.

RNRChemist: How accurately (or not) do you feel the press covered Dylan's set, as well as the whole festival, afterward? It certainly seemed that both you and Bob weren't too keen on what was printed!

RF:  Positive press reports were widespread. There was negativity expressed afterwards in certain quarters of the UK gutter press regarding Dylan cutting short his set - which of course was not true, but perhaps this might have been a reaction to the pre-festival hype predicting a super-jam with the Stones and the Beatles. Others were casting around for something to write – a peaceful trouble-free festival was really not exciting enough. The negatives were easily outweighed by the positives, but it was significantly damaging to Dylan for him to reflect uneasily on playing in the UK afterwards although initially he had seemed delighted with the event. Comments were as varied as George Harrison’s words reported in the Daily Mirror ‘I could go on talking about Dylan for eight hours. He’s unlimited in what he’s doing…’ to the Daily Sketch’s ‘Dylan cuts it short after midnight flop’ For us the flimsy complaints were irritating to say the least but by and large we were very happy. Reporting in general ranged from generally accurate to accounts laden with descriptions of debauchery and depravity, some of which could be quite funny.

RNRChemist: After the festival, can you describe how you felt? How did you think things went?

RF:  After the festival and the initial exhaustion, we felt elated combined with a huge sense of relief for having pulled it off. We were astonished at how well it had gone really. We were completely inspired to repeat the event, if not to surpass it.

RNRChemist: What was the festival site like after everyone left? How long did it take to clean up and return to normal?

RF:  The festival site was awash with rubbish as far as the eye could see. As you might expect, but there was no permanent damage other than minor damage to the catering tent, which had been used as a vantage point by Bob-spotters. It took three or four weeks to restore the site to its former condition.

RNRChemist: Any folks in particular that you want to single out as being particularly helpful throughout the whole festival, from planning to execution to wrap-up?

RF:  There are certain individuals who were particularly helpful throughout the festival. Turner Smith on site was a powerhouse of a man, strapping and strong and willing to take on any task. He had good knowledge of construction and general engineering matters. Electrician Harry Garrood was similarly around from the beginning. He was very skilled and kept with us. Another older gent Dr Quantrill was willing to stick his neck out for us in influencing the authorities to have faith in us and to dismiss scurrilous health scares as ridiculous.

RNRChemist: What was the local reaction before, during, and after the festival?
RF:  Local reaction to the oncoming festival was not initially as great as you might think. In fact a large number of Isle of Wight residents simply had no time to really contemplate what was actually arriving on the Island. Obviously there was great excitement among the youngsters. Some of this was evidenced on site when youths would come by and offer to do any job, sometimes without pay. Older people expressed dismay at the prospect of the Island being flooded with festivalgoers – perhaps our slogan ‘Help Bob Dylan Sink the Isle of Wight’ didn’t help there. During the festival itself there were stresses on certain resources for instance provisions in local shops -but others saw the festival as a great opportunity and set out their stalls, literally!  The reaction afterwards was similarly mixed. On the whole young people were very much in favour of the festival while those of the older generation who objected were wild with antagonism and would express their hostility in extreme terms.

RNRChemist: Why did you decide to jump right into planning the next one? How much time did you take to relax and bask in the afterglow of the '69 festival before starting to plan for '70?

RF:  After just a few days or weeks of reflection, recuperation and taking stock our thoughts gravitated towards another festival. It was inevitable. There was no question of basking in an afterglow for very long. There was just too much to do if we were to repeat the festival only go one better.

RNRChemist: What's your overarching memory of that year and what you and your colleagues accomplished with the 1969 Isle of Wight festival?

RF:  It was a staggering realisation to have accomplished what we had set out to do. It was life changing. It felt like we could do anything or that anything was possible, once the finance was organised.

RNRChemist: Ray and Caroline, thank you so much for your time and insight. You've got me looking forward to volume two even more and I hope we can continue our discussion after that book is published. In the meantime, to my readers, I can't recommend Stealing Dylan From Woodstock enough...if you're a fan of the era and/or any of the acts that played the IOW in 1969, you'll definitely enjoy reading about how it all came together. Britain's answer to Woodstock was bigger and in many ways better, and incredibly they topped it the following year, but the story of how that happened will have to wait for volume two...

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Interview with Paul "Smiler" Anderson, author of Mods: The New Religion

Author Paul Anderson

The Rock and Roll Chemist is proud to bring you the following interview with author Paul "Smiler" Anderson. Paul is the author of the excellent book Mods: The New Religion which I reviewed earlier this year. For anyone interested in Mod style and culture and music, or just 1960s Britain in general, it's a must-read. Paul 'Smiler' Anderson has been involved with DJ'ing on the Mod scene for over 30 years and has been writing about it via fanzines, record sleeve notes and books for the same amount of time. He has DJ'd at many of the major Mod nights and has DJ'd at Mod rallies and events, both in the UK and Europe, since the 1980s. In 2011 he wrote and came up with the concept of the biggest ever exhibition of 1960s Mod artfacts, which alongside Damian Jones, he set up at Reading Museum entitled 'Reading Steady Go!' In 2009 he co-wrote "Circles - The Strange Story of The Fleur De Lys" about the little known 60's Mod band. in 2014 "Mods: The New Religion" was published and he is currently working on a new book entitled "Mod Art" due for release next year. Paul was kind enough to answer my many questions about his great book and his views on Mod culture. Enjoy!

RNRChemist: Hi Paul, thanks for speaking with me...I'm really excited to have the opportunity! Let's get started: can you tell us little bit about yourself?

PA: I’m 50 years old and I live in Reading in Berkshire which is approximately 40 miles from London. I  live with my wife Lorraine and my son is 4 later this year. I’ve been into Mod since 1979.

RNRChemist: How did you first get into Mod culture?

PA: I became involved in the Mod scene around September 1979 after watching it evolve from afar. At first the entry point was through the revival bands such as the Jam, Secret Affair, The Chords etc. Fashion-wise I hadn’t a clue: it was all white, socks, loafers and a parka. In 1983 I started work as a postman, and by then lots of the older original revival Mods were getting more into being scooter boys. In other words, their interest revolved around their scooters so clothes were not that important and their music choices changed. To me, being a Mod was always about clothes first, music second, and although I always have owned scooters, they really aren’t a necessity. At work I had to wear a uniform so I really appreciated dressing up in my leisure time, which I guess is the paradox to businessmen wearing jeans and sports wear in their free time. By 1984 locally most Mods had evolved into the scooter scene whilst I went in search of my Mod Nirvana which I found in London. I discovered clubs like The Phoenix and Sneakers which were full of young kids wearing tailor made suits and 60s vintage clothes dancing to original R&B, soul, ska, beat and jazz. I found my Mod heaven and that dictated my direction from then on. I was always in search of elusive vintage shirts by Brooks Brothers, Jaytex, Ben Sherman, Brutus, Austins, Jon Wood, Harry Fenton or Arnold Palmer. If you couldn’t get vintage you’d find a good shirt maker such as Katy Stevens who was based at 7 Archer Street in Soho at the time. She’d made shirts for The Beatles and The Small Faces in the 60s and was the best. Suits and trousers were either vintage or tailor made. We had a guy called Charlie Antoniou who had a tiny room above a shop in Carnaby Street. Beautiful mohair masterpieces in 3 or 4 buttons, or maybe double-breasted. You avoided the mass Mod market shops that were dotted along Carnaby Street and were cheap quality pale imitations. The street fashion by 1984 was Frankie says T shirts, linen one button ‘Miami Vice jackets’ or Casual gear such as Pringle, Lyle &Scott etc paired with Farrah slacks. Youth tribes from the period included ‘Boneheads’ (Skinheads racist ancestor), Punks, Psychobillies, Rockabillies, New Romantics, Casuals, Rockers, and Scooter Boys. Most hated us Mods but in a way it felt great to be involved in such an underground movement.

RNRChemist: What was it about being the Mod scene that interested and appealed to you?

PA: As above really. I had no interest in the present day fashions, really.

RNRChemist: How long did you spend researching and writing this book?

PA: The book took around five years to write and was at the publishers for two years before it was released! I did most of it the old fashioned way, recording interviews on a tape recorder, writing it out in ink, editing and typing it up. Most contacts were gained by getting phone numbers and taking a chance.

RNRChemist: What inspired you to write the book?

PA: I’d always written fanzines in the 1980s and I’d never actually read a book that I thought had done the original scene justice. Lots lean towards the Northern Soul route which really doesn’t interest me that much.

RNRChemist: Why do you think the time was right for the movement to start when it did in the late 1950s/early 1960s?

PA: Britain was still recovering from the destruction of the Second World War. Rationing was coming to an end. Hire purchase was on the increase for working class people. National Service ended and youths wanted to distance themselves from the grime and misery that their parents and siblings lives had seemed to be full of.

RNRChemist: Why were the Mods so obsessed with finding authenticity in everything? In particular, with their music?

PA: Mods love one-upmanship, so what better way than to search out an obscure artist or song? To find a rare record on an even scarcer label is always nice.

RNRChemist: Regarding the drug use by the Mods, how prevalent was it and do you think it was as bad as the media made it out to be at the time?

PA: Yes, I think it was very prevalent...probably worse than what was actually reported!! Amphetamines were a huge part of the Mod experience.

RNRChemist: Besides allowing the kids to stay up all night raving it up, why do you think they were drawn to uppers rather than alcohol, pot, or psychedelics?

PA: You have to remember most clubs were held in unlicensed premises, so alcohol was pretty much out of the question. Besides which, a lot of Mods were kids of, say, 15-17 so they were too young to drink anyway. You also have to remember that it was only later in 1964 that the "illegal use of drugs" act was proposed. Prior to that the drugs taken could be slimming pills or pick-me-ups for anxiety. Psychedelics would not enter the scene until ’66 or ’67, really.

RNRChemist: A lot of detractors thought the Mod males were a bit effeminate for caring so much about their appearance, but most of those guys were tough bastards! Why were working class youth so clothes conscious?

PA: The working classes have always liked to dress up, even back in the days of the "Sunday best" suit. You may be poor, but if you can dress up, the less people will judge you.

RNRChemist: The same goes for scooters. What was the appeal? I'm guessing it was some combination of getting around the city easily and appropriating another fashion from the continent?

PA: Yes, it was a glamour aspect combined with a relatively cheap form of transport for freedom. Plus, you could personalise them, and everything engine wise was covered up unlike the dirty, greasy motorbikes of the period.

RNRChemist: The entire movement seemed to have a live fast/live for today mentality...not many of the kids seemed to care to save their money; as soon as they earned it they seemed to spend it on clothes, scooters, records, pills, and going out. Was this simply a rebellion against the austerity and scrimping and saving they'd all known growing up in the 1950s?

PA: You have to remember that the Cuban missile crisis of 1962 almost saw the end of the world. A lot of youngsters wondered if there was much point in saving. They embraced the feeling of moving forward, but living for the moment at the same time. Plus you have to remember they’d grown up in the bomb sites and the grey days of rationing. This mixed with new fashions, music and inventions...why wouldn’t they want a bit of glamour?

RNRChemist: How do you view the whole Mods vs. Rockers thing? Was it a legitimate rivalry or was it trumped up and exaggerated by the media?

PA: A mixture really, yeah, it could be bad but in most cases Rockers lived in the country or the Home Counties. The press stirred it up for sure but in reality the worst enemy of Mods was other Mods. This being either young Mods coming up trying to gain reputations or the usual rival territories such as East London versus South London.

RNRChemist: In your opinion when did the original wave of Mod start to die out? Why do you think it did?

PA: Mod was constantly evolving. The late 50s Mods, well some may have even been gone by ’61 or ’62. The riots in '64 thrust Mod into the spotlight and caused many to disappear. Mod’s last true stand was probably over by ’66 and by ’67... it was definitely past its sell by date. This is due to music evolving, especially in ’67 where the white West Coast sounds took off, plus heavier drugs. For some it was boredom or for many, getting married and settling down. Mod may have still been found in Northern England  and other places, but London was pretty much over it.

RNRChemist: It seems that most of the folks you interviewed in the book all share the opinion that when Mod went commercial and Carnaby Street became the epicenter for Swinging London, the scene moved past its expiration date (so to speak). Was that the death of the movement, losing its authenticity and becoming too mainstream?

PA: I think it was the combination of all that I mentioned in the previous question. In ’66, Swinging London was a tourist trap and a million miles away from how it all started.

RNRChemist: Regarding the people you interviewed, it was so wonderful to read all of their memories and to see many of them in their youth in the midst of the Mod scene. How did you manage to track down so many of them?

PA: Sheer hard graft is the plain answer. Just tracing leads, phone numbers on bits of paper etc. Asking one interviewee if he had other contacts, that sort of thing.

RNRChemist: Who were your favorites of the people you interviewed?

PA: Hard to say really as since making the book I have become good friends with many. Terry from The Eyes, Ali from The Birds, Chris Farlowe, Steve Ellis, Jeff Dexter, and Mike Quinn are some of "the famous" that I now count as friends, which is as surreal as it is lovely. Then the Mods: Mickey Tenner, Lloyd Johnson, and the Portsmouth Mods were all really great. I had loads of fun interviewing Jimmy James, Geno, Martha Reeves, Eddie Floyd, Owen Gray, Derrick Morgan…the whole journey was a blast! I had a lovely couple of meetings with Ian McLagan, sadly the last one was just before he died.

RNRChemist: Personal opinion of course, but who do you think were the leading figures during the scene, and why?

PA: Mickey Tenner was very influential and I was so glad to have him on board for the book. To me, the Birdcage Mods from Portsmouth seemed to have the whole idea and attitude down to a tee. I love those guys. Guy Stevens and Roger Eagle in terms of the music. I believe Chris Barber is the unsung hero of the scene, really. Whilst he was never a Mod, he deserves credit for bringing over all those early visiting blues artists. Of course then there are Andrew Loog Oldham, Peter Meaden, Johnny Moke, Willie Deasy. Most movers and shakers were just the actual Mods.

RNRChemist: Were there any interesting or crazy stories you gathered while interviewing everyone that didn't make the final cut of the book? Any chance you could share one with us?

PA: Ha ha! I could tell you that Andy Ellison and Johns Children actually got the job of painting The New Scene Club white after the Scene Club renamed itself in ’66 and got rid of its old blacked out image. John Lee Hooker used to piss in old empty beer bottles whilst on tour in the back of a van. One day another band used the van, took a corner too fast, and found themselves drenched in stale JLH piss!

RNRChemist: Which of the British bands of the 1960s era do you think were the most authentically Mod? Which ones are your favourites?

PA: I think Rod Stewart was definitely about on the scene in the early days so deserves more credit than he gets...he was everywhere! I believe that Georgie Fame had a lot of suss to cover what they covered musically. The Animals were also loved by the very hip crowd. There are loads of little bands that maybe could be there such as The Wes Minster Five or the Bo Street Runners. The Stones and the Yardbirds were very sussed in their early choice of blues material. You have to put in The Who really, because although kind of manufactured to be Mods, they were in the epicentre of it all. They were in the right clubs and had first pick of a lot of Guy Stevens records. Out of all the singers, to me Chris Farlowe has one of the most authentic sounding voices. Later bands like The Small Faces, The Action, and The Fleur De Lis contained actual Mods so are obviously included. I love aspects of all of these bands, really, so it’s hard to choose. I think The Action are to me the ideal package, though, in terms of material, look, and that fantastic Reggie King voice.

RNRChemist: Why do you think that, alone amongst the big 60s British bands, the Beatles were never really embraced by Mods? They seemed to dress the part and share the same influences as the Mods, yet their brand of pop and rock seemed to fall on deaf ears when it came to the Mods...

PA: Time has been a bit unfair to them. As my book states, they were one of Britain’s first bands to cover R&B. "Some Other Guy" by Ritchie Barrett was a fantastic song to cover, as was "Twist and Shout." But to London Mods they were aliens from "up North" and so were seen as behind the times. Their squeaky clean image was a bit too produced and they were perceived as a girls pop band. Although The Animals were from up North, too (Newcastle), I think they were regarded as a bit more "street" and tough, working class so they were accepted a bit better.

RNRChemist: Along these same lines, the rock and skiffle crazes of the 50s led to a lot of kids picking up an instrument and starting bands; indeed that's how almost all of the 60s bands got started. Yet it seems most of the kids who came up Mod weren't inspired to do the same...they were content to go see shows, dance, and listen to the records. Am I off base, and if not why do you think this is the case?

PA: Can’t really see that, as most early Mod type bands featured at least one person from art school so I think there was a definite creative flow there. Surely the Beatles and The Stones got as many bands to pick up guitars and form bands as did Elvis and even The Shadows? Most later rock groups like Led Zeppelin, Humble Pie, The Faces, and Status Quo all had that Mod background element in them.

RNRChemist: What aspect of Mod fashion is your favorite? How about least favorite?  What do you think are the best and worst aspects of Mod culture?

PA: I love a good button down shirt and tailored trousers with nice loafers, basket weaves, lace ups etc. A beautiful well cut suit is always aesthetically pleasing. I hate all the psychedelic garb, frilly shirts, day glow, big long collars. I’ve never liked boating blazers. The best part of Mod culture is the creative one, as in discovering new records, styles and facts. The worst part is the destructive one, which is the pompous, blinkered and egotistical bullshit that pollutes it.

RNRChemist: In your view, what was it that made the late 1970s climate in the UK and US so ripe for the Mod revival?

PA: The same as when the original scene sparked in to life: Britain was a depressing place. Faded rock stars, strikes, hippie flares, bad haircuts. Punk cut through that all, thank God, but a lot of it came from a middle class background. That added to the fact that punk was kind of like the Rocker thing in that the whole dressing down look was what the establishment and the general public expected. Working class kids in well-cut suits wasn’t, so the boundaries were blurred. Punk gave it the spark of energy needed but lost momentum. The Mod revival just added the energy needed.

RNRChemist: Which bands, if any, from the second generation of Mod (say, the late 1970s Mod revival through to the late 1990s BritPop scene) do you think embodied the spirit of the whole thing (whether in their fashion or music, or both)?

PA: The Jam obviously deserve most credit for having influencing so many of the bands to form or "go Mod." Paul Weller was very quick to point out that The Jam were not a Mod band, although he was a Mod in a band. Weller was pretty shrewd there and deserves credit. He saw what happened to Jimmy Pursey and Sham 69 when you align yourselves in such a way. They had trouble at lots of Sham gigs. Secret Affair took on the banner and suffered lots of trouble at their gigs with the Glory Boys etc. The Chords were great energy-wise as were The Purple Hearts. In honesty, The Style Council probably got a lot closer to the original ethics of Mod in the 80s. By the 80s bands were less punk influenced, so bands like The Prisoners, The Moment, Fast Eddie, and Makin’ Time were accepted by more discerning Mods. Although there were lots of fodder amongst them with bands like The Gents and such. I could not relate to these.

RNRChemist: What are your favorite bands from the original 60s Mod era? Favorite albums? Favorite songs?

PA: My favourite musical style is the blues so I love Jimmy Reed, Little Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, and all those greats. Booker T & the MG’s "Green Onions" probably is the ultimate Mod tune in my opinion with "Ain’t Love Good, Ain’t Love Proud" by Tony Clarke a close second. But my personal favoutite song ever is "Heatwave" by Martha Reeves & the Vandellas. I love all the stuff really. Not a fan of Northern Soul but I like bits of it. R&B, Jazz and Ska are always in my DJ sets. Paul Weller gets a lot of stick but in my opinion he is probably the most influential Mod ever. As much as I love the Small Faces, Marriott and co. were only part of the scene for a very small period. Bands like The Eyes and the Creation always sound so exciting, even today. I’m proud I still like all my revival stuff, too. Hell, life is good. Mod got me in to so many different things, from French Jazz to Brasilian sambas!!!

RNRChemist: Paul, thank you so much for speaking with me and enlightening us with your knowledge and thoughts on all things Mod! It was a true pleasure! For my readers, I can't recommend this book enough. If you're a fan of anything we touched upon in our discussion above, you need Paul's book as it is truly the bible for all things Mod.

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Interview with Chuck Gunderson, author of Some Fun Tonight! The Backstage Story of How the Beatles Rocked America: The Historic Tours of 1964-1966

Author Chuck Gunderson

The Rock and Roll Chemist is very excited to bring you today's interview with Chuck Gunderson, author of the excellent book Some Fun Tonight which has previously been reviewed here on the site. Chuck Gunderson was raised in San Diego, California, the site of the Beatles’ eighth stop on the 1965 North American tour. He was too young to attend the show, but he fondly recalls his older siblings spinning the records of the Fab Four as he grew up, which perked a life-long love for the band. He has worked in the outdoor advertising industry most of his life, although his true passion is history. He holds two degrees in history—a B.A. from San Diego State University and an M.A. from the University of San Diego. Having published a few articles over the years, Chuck turned his sights to researching and writing this epic two-volume set on the history of the Beatles’ North American tours of 1964 to 1966. Chuck is married to Christina, and they are the parents of four children, each a self-described Beatles fan.  After reading both information-packed volumes of his book, I had a LOT of questions and Chuck was kind enough to answer them.

RNRChemist: Chuck, thanks so much for taking the time to discuss your excellent books; it's a real pleasure.  Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? How did you first get into the Beatles?

CG: I am almost a first-generation fan (born in 1962), but fortunately for me, I had older brothers and a sister who were constantly spinning 45's and albums of the Beatles.  I fondly recall the Capitol swirl and later the Apple label revolving on our cheap turn table-so a fan from the very beginning of my life.

RNRChemist: What made you decide to write this book? Why focus on these specific tours from the Beatles' career?

CG: My favorite period of Beatle history is their live performances. Let's face it, they didn't start in a sterile studio but the rough and tumble stages of Liverpool and Hamburg where they logged thousands of playing hours.  Mark Lewisohn's book, "The Beatles Live!" was for certain a catalyst.  Others had written books on one or two of the tours, but they lacked detail and great photos.  I waited and waited for someone to do a definitive book on the tours like Bruce Spizer, but when no one stepped up to the plate I decided to do it myself.  I have a Master's in history, so I know how to write, research, and organize and being a huge fan made it all work out!

RNRChemist: How did you go about researching each show, tracking down the people involved, etc.?

CG: Most firsthand accounts of the Beatles playing in a city in North America were scant at best.  Newspapers of the day devoted a paragraph or two about the concert and maybe printed one photo, and almost never printed a set list of what was even sung!  So in the 8 years of research I conducted in assembling the books, I interviewed lots of people that were connected with the shows: promoters, DJ's, photographers, hotel managers, venue personnel, newsmen, fans, people from GAC (The New York talent agency that booked the shows) and of course, the Beatles' inner circle like Tony Barrow and Bernard Lee.  I'm glad I started to conduct the interviews several years ago as many have passed on.

RNRChemist: Along the same lines as above, your attention to detail is impressive, down to describing what the Beatles ate for room service. How on earth did you find all that stuff out?

CG: One interview led to another which led to another; someone would tell me, "Hey, that guy still works at the hotel the Beatles stayed at!" Great, let's find that guy and conduct an interview.  Some of the finer details of what they ate for breakfast was usually printed in primary sources like the newspaper or teen magazines.

RNRChemist: How did you track down all of that great memorabilia? Hardest piece to find? Most expensive?

CG: The vast majority is from my own personal collection.  Along with loving the music, I've been a collector for many years.  Knowing I would go broke if I collected all you can collect of the Beatles, I decided to concentrate my efforts on North American tour memorabilia: tickets, handbills, programs, posters, photographs, and documents. All of it is in the book and printed in a high quality format so you can easily read every line of a Beatles tour rider. Luckily, they weren't 50 pages long like they are today! The riders for the Beatles tours only consisted of about a page and a half.

RNRChemist: What is your overall assessment of the Beatles as a live band? I always feel that aspect of their career gets overlooked and unfairly dismissed as subpar.

CG: I think they were a fabulous live band.  I would have given anything to have seen a performance at the Cavern or any of the small cinemas they played throughout the U.K.  In America, I would have loved to have seen them at the Paramount (about 3500 seats) and of course, Shea just to say, "I was there!"  Remember, they didn't have the sound technology they have today and I just marvel how they even played a set at Shea with 55,000 plus fans screaming their lungs out!  The reason they endured as a live act was because they had had logged thousands of hours together on stage.  It was a beautiful sympathy to watch as everyone knew exactly where they were in the song despite the sound challenges.

RNRChemist: Can you discuss your thoughts on the scale of those tours relative to the time? It's always seemed as though the band grew too big for the venues they ended up playing and outpaced the logistics as well as the amp/PA technology of the era.  Fair assessment?

CG: Somewhat of a fair assessment.  Nothing on the scale of the Beatles' 1964 tour had ever been done before.  Elvis had played the Cotton Bowl in Texas in the mid to late 50s but he normally played much smaller venues than the Beatles did.  The music they were to create later, Revolver, Rubber Soul, Sgt. Pepper simply could not be recreated on stage due to sound technology limitations.  The venues they played in North America were the biggest around and were the only options Brian and GAC had to satisfy the fans.

RNRChemist: If they'd hung on another year when amps and PAs caught up do you think they could have kept touring? Obviously they wouldn't have been able to reproduce much from Revolver or Sgt. Pepper, for example, but they could have at least been heard if they'd done stripped back versions of some of those songs.

CG: Great question! I'm just not sure on that.  I think Paul would have gone on, but George was the most vocal in giving up the stage.  Had they been able to recreate some of the newer music they were releasing, Brian may have asked them to continue touring to create more fans and make more money. It seems to fit that after they quit touring in August of 1966, Brian died a year later.  He was instrumental in creating those tours with promoters from around the world.

RNRChemist: Along the same lines, we've all read about how they were invited to play Monterey Pop in '67 and Woodstock in '69.  There is also credible evidence they had booked the Roundhouse in London for some shows in December 1968 before pulling the plug.  Given what you know about their American tours, could you have seen them actually doing those shows in an alternate universe?

CG: I don't think so.  Again, if they did Paul, most likely, had pushed for it.  Later shows featured groups that stayed on stage for an hour or two...would the Beatles do that?  I don't think so....Paul does now, but I don't think the four of them would have post-1966.

RNRChemist: Back to the American tours that are the subject of your book: what's your opinion on their musicianship on these tours? What do you think they could have done differently/better?

CG: Under the circumstances, I thought it was good.  How did Ringo hold down a beat amongst the screams? The answer: experience.  They were playing venues where the sound system was installed in the 20s, like Maple Leaf Gardens...I don't think they could have introduced anything to make the music sound better as it wasn't invented yet.

RNRChemist: Brian Epstein's business ineptitude has been detailed a lot over the years. His tour planning left a lot to be desired in terms of logistics and how the Beatles criss-crossed the country in an apparently random pattern. Do you think it all could have gone smoother had he been a better businessman and more versed how to plan the travel, for example?  I've recently read a book about their UK tours and the same thing happened where they zig-zagged all over the country with no logic behind it.

CG: Brian relied on GAC (the New York talent agency) to book the tours.  GAC knew America and knew the venues.  They presented Brian with everything but the kitchen sink as many cities wanted them.  I think Brian and the Beatles wanted to see particular cities (Las Vegas, New Orleans) that GAC may have frowned on due to size.  It was haphazard, though, playing Montreal then flying down to Jacksonville, then back up to Boston.  It seemed they were inventing the tour as they went along because they cancelled reservations of hotels they were booked to stay at.  The 1965 and 1966 tours were more logical in terms of flight plans.

RNRChemist: All of those tours and the Beatles had a road crew of two: Neil and Mal. Talk about a skeleton crew! You can't imagine anyone these days, let alone even from the early 1970s onward, going out with a crew smaller than 100. It was truly a different era...can you comment on the job Neil and Mal did on these US tours?

CG: I had Ed Freeman, who worked on the 1966 tour, tell me it took four people to set up the stage: him, Mike Owen, Mal Evans, and Neil.  They fit all the Beatles equipment into one stretch van!  For sure Mal and Neil were the backbone of the tour and I feature an image of them sitting on an amp during the 1965 tour for my dedication page on the second volume.

RNRChemist: The Beatles almost split for good after the '66 tour because of everything that had happened on the road that year.  How much do you think the sheer insanity (the endless mania, lack of privacy, screaming, etc.) of these tours contributed to their stopping playing live and never wanting to go back on the road (apart from Paul?).

CG: Even Paul called it the "Lark of touring."  Even though the U.S. '65 and '66 tours were much shorter in duration than the 1964 tour, the group was yearning to be in the studio creating new music.  Bob Eubanks, who promoted them all three years in L.A., told me that he made more money in the promotion of the 1965 Hollywood Bowl shows than the Beatles earned on stage.  Yes, they made a ton of money during the 1964 tour (over a million) but it was becoming more costly as venues were getting larger and logistics more complicated.

RNRChemist: Speaking of the mania, why do you think the crowds (mainly the girls in the crowds) felt the need to scream and shout nonstop? It's been endlessly debated over the years but I'm interested in your view of it.

CG: The Beatles, as viewed by the girls, were mostly looked at as good looking guys rather than serious musicians.  Plus they added elements into their shows that created the gasps and screams from the girls: the clothes, the hair, the head shake, the scream going into the bridge, PLUS they were handsome, let's face it!

RNRChemist: Can you comment on how spartan the conditions were for the Beatles, the biggest band in the world, on the road? Especially compared to what it would be like a few years later, they had minimal comforts and their tour rider was so innocently simple.

CG: One promoter I interviewed booked them to play in San Diego during their height of superstardom in 1965.  He only spent $33.96 on food for the ENTIRE entourage of the Beatles camp!  He had it listed on his statement which I feature in the book. In 1965 they only added these additional requests from the 1964 tour rider: four cots, mirrors, a portable T.V. set, and clean towels. Yes, very sparse compared to today's spoiled rock stars.

RNRChemist: Let's dive into the actual performances on stage.  First, how bad must it have been for the support acts? No one wanted to see them and they were shouted down by crowds who only wanted to see the Beatles and paid them very little attention. Do you think they only agreed to the support slots because of the exposure they'd get?

CG: Bill Black reportedly paid GAC a bribe to book his group on the 1964 tour.  Sadly, Bill never made it on tour as he became sick and died a year later, so he for sure wanted the exposure.  The Righteous Brothers, however, were not very happy with their slot on the tour.  In trying to sing their soulful melodies, they gave it up after 9 dates on the 1964 tour.  They were sick of fans screaming, "We want the Beatles!" Plus they made more money doing venues on the West Coast.  Brian and GAC were gracious to let them out of their contract.  All the support acts, however, were consummate professionals and played every gig. I still can't imagine what King Curtis, who was used to performing in small jazz clubs, must have felt appearing on stage at Shea Stadium to kick off the 1965 tour!

RNRChemist: Now, regarding the Beatles, here is a theory of mine that I've held to for many years and I'd like to get your opinion on it.  I've always thought that the fact that the crowds didn't even try to listen to the music was a bigger factor in their decision to stop touring than its given credit for? I mean, they've got older teenagers and adults buying their records and really listening to the records and trying to understand their more complex music, while on the other hand their concert audience is made up almost exclusively of young girl teenyboppers who do nothing but go nuts screaming without listening. As John said, they used the concerts as "bloody tribal rites" and an excuse to go crazy at the Fabs' expense. That has to wear on an artist who takes their work seriously and is trying to share it with their fans, no? Am I making too much of this?

CG: I agree with you.  Especially in 1965 and 1966.  Before the tour began in 1965 the Capitol "Help!" soundtrack was released and "Beatles VI" was released only a few months prior.  The Beatles only played three songs off those two albums and one was a cover: Dizzie Miss Lizzie. In 1966 "Revolver" was released right before the tour and not ONE song was covered on stage!  The teenie-boppers would have loved at least to hear "Yellow Submarine."  Ringo said it best in Anthology: he felt people were only coming to see them and not listen to the music.  In 1964 they could pull it off, but not for the subsequent tours that followed.

RNRChemist: Let's talk about the massive and groundbreaking 1965 tour, where they finally made the leap from theatres and auditoriums to stadiums and arenas.  They sure didn't have any problem selling out venues across the country but it seems like they were flying by the seat of their pants and barely doing it given the state of 1965 infrastructure in the USA.  Tell me what you think of this tour.

CG: Many people consider the 1965 tour the "Stadium Tour" when in fact, of the 10 cities they performed in, 5 were stadiums and 5 were arenas, the difference being if they played an arena they would always do two shows.  Plus, they didn't sell out every venue.  Of the stadiums in 1965 only Shea was a sellout and there were plenty of tickets to be had in places like San Diego and Minneapolis.

RNRChemist: Now, let's discuss the final tour of 1966: the fallout from John's "bigger than Jesus" comments, death threats and protests, Beatles memorabilia burnings, a significant amount of unsold seats, and a press that was finally antagonistic (with the Beatles responding in kind). It seemed like a perfect storm of everything that could go wrong going wrong all at once. How much of the press' behavior do you think was due to Beatle fatigue?  And how much do you think this contributed to their already fragile attitude toward touring?

CG: The press went after them in 1966.  They were asked serious questions during all three tours about politics, Vietnam, race relations and such, but it seemed the group was much too flippant for the American press to handle, especially  during the 1966 tour.  They just didn't care anymore and looked at the tours as a business obligation to be fulfilled.  In 1966 they cut back on formal press conference and preferred "Press Tapings" where a reporter would get with an individual Beatle for a series of questions. They did 25 formal press conferences in 33 days in 1964, but by 1966 they only did 6 or 7 formal sessions with the press.  Fatigue was a factor, but they were tired of answering the same "type" questions from city to city.

RNRChemist: Even considering all of what happened in 1966, it's always seemed as though the Beatles were adored much more in the US than in their native UK. This seems to hold true even more today, where the UK press has no problem taking swipes at Paul or Ringo whereas they are almost 100% loved here.  Why do you think America did and still does hold the Beatles dearer than their native England?

CG: America put the "stamp" on the Beatles.  In a worldly sense, I would say New York City is the center of everything Beatle.  Plus the Beatles were not here on American soil a ton as everyone seems to think.  As a matter of fact, the group as a whole only stood on American soil for a total of 90 days...maybe limited exposure? People always want more than they are getting!

RNRChemist: What was the most surprising and/or interesting thing you discovered when working on the book?  Were there any crazy rock and roll stories from the road you uncovered that didn't make the final cut that you can share with us?

CG: I pretty much shared everything.  It was a planned one volume book of about 350 pages, but when I started uncovering stories and photos that had never been seen I just had to share. I'm a fan first and wanted to give the fans the best I could give them for the money.  So it morphed into 2 volumes and over 600 pages and I even threw in a slipcase!  Some people are taken back on the price of $175, but if Genesis did a project like this fans would be paying $600 to $800.  Plus, I put all the bells and whistles on this project: extra thick paper, spot varnish on all the photos and memorabilia, just a complete quality project, plus hundreds of unpublished photos.  I busted lots of myths that had been held for years, so read the books to find out!

RNRChemist: You did indeed do a great job with the presentation of the books...they are gorgeous and as nice to look at as they are to read!  Okay, now for some personal questions:

Which of the American tours do you think was the best, and why?

CG: 1964: new and fresh. Exhaustive in that they did 32 shows in 33 days!

RNRChemist: Musically, which is your favorite concert (I'm assuming you've heard recordings? My personal favorites from the US tours are the Hollywood Bowl shows from '64 and '65, Shea Stadium '65, and Atlanta '65. Philly from '64 is a great one, too).

CG: Atlanta 1965 is my favorite and not because they had feedback monitors; they didn't... another myth broken and a great story in the book.

RNRChemist: What's your favorite song they did live? Least favorite? How about one you wish they played in concert?  What about one they played live that you wish they hadn't?

CG: Most favorite: without a doubt, "Long Tall Sally:" it's a cover song but was the inspiration for my title and the last song they ever sung live, albeit only just over 30 seconds on tape because Tony Barrow's tape ran out...aagghhhh! Least favorite: Yesterday (Sorry, Paul). My wish: I Saw Her Standing There...One, Two, Three, Faaaoorrr!!! Great starter.

RNRChemist: Did you ever see the Beatles live? How about any of them solo?

CG: I wish I had; they came to San Diego in 1965 but I was only 3! I've seen Paul and Ringo several times...if you haven't, you need to see them!

RNRChemist: I saw Paul in 2013 and Ringo last summer and I agree, they were fantastic and must-see for any Beatles fans! Any future Beatles project coming up? Maybe a book on other tours they did?

CG: I would love to do another project and have some ideas in mind, but right now I'm concentrating on selling this book, so please buy it! Thanks so much for the interview...great questions!

RNRChemist: Chuck, thanks so much for enlightening us with your Beatles knowledge and discussing your book with us...it was a real pleasure to speak with you! And to my readers, I cannot recommend Chuck's books enough; if you're a serious Beatles fan, you need these! Once again, thank you, Chuck!

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Interview with Jake Rohrer, author of A Banquet of Consequences

The Rock and Roll Chemist is privileged to bring you the following interview with Jake Rohrer, former go-to guy (think of him as a quasi-manager) for legendary 1960s rock band Creedence Clearwater Revival.  As a bit of background, in the photo above Jake Rohrer is pictured at his desk in the CCR Berkeley headquarters, the "Factory," circa 1970.  The woman in the photo is Jake's sister, Mary Goodrich, who helped him run the fan club and hold down the office when they were on the road (photo credit: Deiter Zill).  His recently published memoir, A Banquet of Consequences: Sex (not too much), Drugs (plenty), Rock & Roll (of course), and the Feds (who invited them?) is at once unpretentious and profound, dramatic and humorous, and goes far beyond his association with Creedence Clearwater Revival which could even be considered secondary to the rest of his story. Today he lives with his wife in rural upcountry Maui, where they farm the land, maintain a recording studio, and administer their music label featuring the traditional music of Hawaii.  

I've previously reviewed his excellent memoir, A Banquet of Consequences, and Jake was kind enough to elaborate on his life and career by answering some questions I had about his book. I hope you enjoy reading our interview as much as I enjoyed speaking with Jake.

RNRChemist: Jake, thanks so much for speaking to me regarding your excellent book and your fascinating story.  Let's get right into some questions!  First up, the obvious one: what motivated you to write a book about your life?

JR: Simply the joy of writing (discovered while incarcerated) and thinking I'm probably not very good at fiction.  Recent loss of the retail CD markets and loss of music markets in general found me with lots of time on my hands. I turned to writing.

RNRChemist: Can you give a little background into your upbringing? What was it like?

JR: I was raised by successful, caring, and loving parents; We had everything we needed in the America of the late forties and throughout the fifties.  Home life was supportive and comfortable, lacking only in progressive idealism which wouldn't come along until later on.

RNRChemist: How did you first get involved with the guys who ultimately became Creedence? What did you do over the course of working for them?

JR: They showed up on my high school campus in the fall of 1960 as the Blue Velvets, a genuine rock & roll band.  I was enamored by their music and sought them out as friends.  About nine years later I was working for them as their representative in press relations, public relations, touring support, general factotum, diplomatic attache, and all around front man.

RNRChemist: You had a pretty successful (by the sounds of it) auto dealership business that your family ran. Was it hard to leave that behind to go into the music world when CCR hit?

JR: Not hard at all when looking at the invitation to come work for CCR.  I'd lost my father who started the business before I was born. The joy and challenge of the auto business was eventually gone with him.  I was ready for a change and who could resist the opportunity to work on the world stage of rock & roll with close and admired friends?

RNRChemist: What was the relationship between the guys in CCR like back in the early, pre-fame days? Was there any hint of the bitterness that was to come?

JR: None that I ever saw. These guys were like brothers (Tom and John, of course, actually were), supportive, respectful, fun loving, music loving and hard working. They were great friends to me and among themselves.

RNRChemist: During the band's heyday, what was it like? How was the relationship between the guys?

JR: It was like a dream come true, everything they did seemed to work like magic. They were treated like royalty everywhere they went.  They were personally close and proud of their achievements. John's leadership and musical abilities were respected and held in high regard by the others.  I wasn't aware of any internal dissension until just before Tom left. I could feel anxiety building and it felt to me as though what had been taken for granted, an easy-going and humble acceptance of fame and accomplishment, had somehow turned into something precious and breakable.  Suddenly it seemed like all that success wasn't enough. Things relaxed for a couple of years after Tom left the band, then--to me inexplicably--the tension and anxiety returned around the recording and release of Mardi Gras.

RNRChemist: What were your initial impressions of John? Doug? Stu? Tom? How about since they split up in 1973?

JR: As high school friends I looked on them as fun loving, talented guys.  Stu, and especially Doug, were gregarious and outgoing.  John was quieter, seeming more serious, but still ready for a good time.  I looked on all of them as capable and smart.  I didn't get to know Tom until I came to work for them and knew him even less after he left the band. Now he's gone, gone, gone...I still occasionally communicate with Stu and Doug and value their friendship. A few years back I was in Columbia, Missouri, visiting my son and his family, and Creedence Clearwater Revisited was performing in town.  Stu and Doug took the time to come to my son's home for a dinner and autograph session with all my son's pals and their wives, all totally thrilled.  What great sports. They did that for me and I love them for it.  John:  John is John, so different from anyone else I've ever been close to.  He was a loner when I worked for him, and I assume he still is. There was a quiet intensity about him and yet a warm and smiling side as well. Except for some pleasantries exchanged when I was a witness in a CCR related lawsuit, we haven't spoken since we parted ways in 1977. Sure, I miss him. He was a close friend and confidant who I greatly admired. I can't even imagine how he's changed since then.  I guess I have, too.  He acquired a new wife and family and I wish him only happiness. My greatest disappointment concerning John was when he refused to perform with Stu and Doug at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction.  I thought it malicious, a blight on his legacy. Here was an  opportunity to mend old wounds, to revisit and celebrate their greatness. I don't know why the HOF people let the show go on.  Stu said it best: " ... it wasn't John Fogerty they were inducting."

RNRChemist: CCR's never ending legal battles with each other popped up again when Stu and Doug recently sued John over use of the Creedence name in promotions. If you had to take sides in this mess, which side would it be and why?

JR: This is a business dispute that will be settled by lawyers.  It's not up to me to take sides on a subject that sure isn't any of my business and I know very little about.

RNRChemist: After they split and you stopped working for them, you worked with John for a while as he started his solo career. What sort of things were you doing for him?

JR: A while was about four years, the same amount of time I spent in prison. I generally acted as his representative for matters of business and the public, very much what I had done with the band. We spent a lot of time in Troy, Oregon, building John a house while he acquainted himself with the finer points of hunting and fishing and the great outdoors. We also drank some whiskey and played country music in the local honky tonk. We spent some limited time in L.A. after John signed with Geffen (Asylum), but it never felt to me like we boys from Berkeley fit with the L.A. scene. John's solo career didn't really take off until "Centerfield" in 1985 when I was seven or eight years gone from his employ.

RNRChemist: Why do you think he developed such writers block around that time, which lasted the better part of a decade?

JR: I think John lapsed into a dark, quiet place, struggling with the reality of all that had gone down during his professional career: from the beginning he and the others were tied to a crappy, one-sided contract (like most musicians of the day were), the loss of his band, the loss of their money in a sham off-shore trust, the loss of confidence in his song writing, a bitter battle with Saul Zaentz and Fantasy Records, equally bitter battles with band members, and who knows what else? I believe he convinced himself that he was a victim, that others had taken unfair advantage of him, and he just wouldn't let go of that idea. I think that sort of thinking only holds you back.

RNRChemist: You pull no punches about your time in the drug trade during the 1970s...what led you into that world?

JR: The ease of opportunity and I needed a job.  All of a sudden I was making rock-star money, and I liked the sense of freedom it afforded. I didn't have a lot of moral hangups about drugs; I don't have an addictive personality and thought cocaine easy to deal with. It was rampant throughout the music business and I never thought much of it.  I was later to realize how insidious a drug it is, that it sneaks up on a lot of people, and truly, we're better off without having it around as a recreational habit.

RNRChemist: Did you ever worry about getting arrested or killed by a rival dealer while you were doing that?

JR: No. I entered into a fraternity of honorable guys who didn't believe in violence. Rule number one: you don't lie, cheat or steal, and you don't rat on your brothers. Like all good things, that didn't last forever, and the huge profits attracted the kind of people who were as willing to cut your throat as look at you. Things got somewhat dicey down the road.

RNRChemist: You were ratted out by the guys higher in the operation than you were and got a pretty heavy prison sentence while they got off relatively easy. You could have been really bitter and angry about that but you weren't, which I thought was quite impressive. Why were you able to keep a different perspective on it?

JR: I was bitter at first. I wasn't caught doing anything, I was told on. It was only one guy, the guy who was said to be at the top of the chain and they were letting him go in exchange for being an informant. It wasn't an "operation" per se.  There wasn't a  gang or cartel involved. It was  a group of non-violent, independent entrepreneurs who knew and trusted one another.  When I finally accepted responsibility for my actions, realizing that I had created my own karma, things got easier. I became convinced that I was far better off serving my time than the informant who traded his prison time for a life sentence of a different nature. I looked back on the drug life as a facade, an ugly and dangerous waste of time.

RNRChemist: You also mention in the book that while prison isn't anything anyone should aspire to, you "enjoyed" your time there (relatively speaking) and are thankful for it. Can you elaborate on that a bit?

JR: Sure. A better man came out than went in. There was plenty of time for reading and contemplation.  I discovered the joy that can come from writing. It's also opportunity to get your temple (body) into shape and kill off your bad habits.  I went in weighing 230 pounds and came out under 180, lean and in great shape. I quit my tobacco habit. I originally called my book "The Fortunate Son," because I've always considered myself fortunate.  I was fortunate to have the parents I did, to grow up where I did in the era that I did, to do the things I've done.  And I was fortunate to go to prison when I did, before sentence requirements got so crazy, and fortunate to be in prison circumstances where I could play sports, play music, enjoy a camaraderie with fellow inmates, all of these things--it was like going back to high school again even though I was in my forties, lacking only females. I came out feeling twenty years younger. Imagine a second chance at youth. Even today I sometimes I walk around feeling like I must be in that Paul Newman movie, "Somebody Up There Likes Me," so grateful to be alive in good health, able to extract the joy from each passing day.  I don't want to paint a picture of every single day being something great.  Shit happens.  In prison and out, yesterday, today and tomorrow. But, taken as a whole experience, I got value out of prison. I accepted being locked up, I had earned that, and made up my mind to make the most of it.

RNRChemist: Are you still in touch with any of the characters from your time in prison you mentioned in the book?

JR: Sure. Foremost my brother. We've always been very close. I've never, though, been able to find my "amigo," Chris, from my days at the medium security prison at Terminal Island.  I met Chris, who'd spent half of his life behind bars, on the day I walked in, and he became my friend, teacher and benefactor, significantly easing my transition into the prison environment.

RNRChemist: You mention at the end of the book that while your time in prison doesn't seem too bad based on the stories you told, there were some bad things that happened that you didn't want to include in the book. Is there any chance you could share some with us, if you don't mind?

JR: No "bad" things happened to me in prison. I was never assaulted, disciplined, or sent to the "hole."  I was never caught doing any of the bad stuff we did. The negative I was balancing consisted mostly of a rigid control by a bureaucratic system that never let you forget who's in charge. Boredom, missing loved ones, and occasionally having to take shit from some nasty, mean-spirited guard whose sorry existence revolved around keeping other people jailed. Worse than that, having to take shit from that guy's boss, a similarly dull-witted, mean-spirited, bureaucratic robot whose sense of purpose in this world was predicated on extracting society's revenge from those under his dominion. I witnessed a lot of what I considered mean and cowardly behavior by prison administrators, most of whom were morally and intellectually inferior to those over whom they held their sway. On the other side of that coin were those working in the prison environment who were fair-minded, decent, thinking and warm human beings.

RNRChemist: What have you been up to since you were released?

JR: That's almost like the whole second half of my life. Here's a thumbnail: right out of the halfway house, I went to work for an old friend in his law office in downtown Oakland.  I was the investigator, paralegal and office administrator. I stayed with that job for ten years, until one day my wife announced, "I'm going to Maui. You coming?"  Of course I was.  Most of my family lived on Maui and we already owned a home  there. I had no idea what I would do when I got there, but I knew that first I had to build a garage and a cottage for my aging mother.  One day my brother asked if I could write some radio commercials for his travel business. I had an 8-track cassette recorder and a couple of AKG C-1000 microphones. Sure I can. My wife and I had been playing music together (she ukulele, me guitar) for kicks and supporting hula halau (schools) on the mainland and on Maui. I wrote clever commercials, doing the music and voice over, and my wife would sing the jingle. They were very successful and provided a good part of our income for several years. Another day, local spiritualist and recording artist, Lei`ohu Ryder, brought my wife home from a heiau (ancient Hawaiian temple) work party with a broken leg. Learning that I had worked with CCR (she was a big fan) and that I had the beginnings of a recording studio, she ventured, "Let's make a record!"  Sure I can. That kicked off our label, Ululoa Productions, and my career as a producer and engineer. Our first recordings, Lei'ohu's "Lady of the Mountain" and Ata Damasco's Hawaiian gospel album "From the Valley to the Throne" still sell in respectable numbers today, 14 years after release. Over the next decade or so, we produced, manufactured and released over 20 commercial CDs of mostly traditional Hawaiian music by mostly local Maui artists, as well as many recording jobs for other artists. Hawaii is a small market and now, without distribution and retail stores to sell them, the death knell has all but tolled for retail CDs. Our once busy studio has few projects today. We still administer our label and our releases are still available, but the market isn't what it was. With time on my hands, I thought about writing a book

RNRChemist: Any regrets or things you'd have done differently during your time with CCR? After?

JR: Hindsight is always 20-20 and life's been too good for regrets. Sure, there are things I would have done differently, but I don't dwell there.

RNRChemist: Some quick hit questions:

Favorite band?

JR: I just don't know. I hardly listen to rock music anymore.  I'm more likely to listen to real rock and roll out of the fifties than anything else in that vein. Who's better than Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Jerry Lee Lewis and those other great pioneers? I still like the Stones, Allman Brothers, Creedence (of course), loved the Blasters and the Beatles. I like Zeppelin until Plant starts screaming at me. Most current bands sound like digital noise to me. I like roots music, Americana music, traditional music, blues... like good food and wine, I want to taste the earth from which it came from. The music I love has that same earth-connection, regardless of genre. I like those records that make me pull to the side of the road and wait for the end so I can write down who and what I just heard.

I've also developed an interest and fascination for the great philharmonic orchestras of our day.  I love watching those superb and dedicated musicians interpret the tempos and arrangements from the conductor, working together, and the tremendous sound they create from their acoustic instruments. They sometimes remind me of the best rock & roll band you can imagine, on a great night.

RNRChemist: Favorite album?

JR: I literally have thousands of albums (yeah, 33-1/3 rpm) and CDs collected over a lifetime. How could I have a favorite?  The best new release I've come across in recent months is Dave and Phil Alvin singing the songs of Big Bill Broonzy.  Wonderful stuff.  Right now I'm listening to Dion DiMucci, Bronx in Blue, released a few years back. He was seventy years old when he recorded that. What a great voice, great chops, then and now. It's hard to start naming names. There's too much great music out there. I recently mastered about 60 hours of cassettes to CD from the late, great KFAT radio in Gilroy, CA.  I did it for Gilbert Klein, a KFAT stalwart, for love of the music and the memories. I just don't think Pandora can compete with KFAT. Or most of the other stuff I can pull off my shelves.  Or pick the music that means something to me.

RNRChemist: As far as CCR goes, what's your favorite CCR album and song?

JR: Green River and "Green River."  Willy and the Poor Boys, a close second.

RNRChemist: Finally, after you wrote the book, did you look back and think "wow! What an interesting life I've had so far!" ?

JR: No, not really.  Everyone's life is interesting, or can be.  I take more pleasure in reading what I wrote, "Wow!... I nailed that scene!"

RNRChemist: Jake, thanks so much for taking the time to speak with me; your insight and perspective on your life and on music are really inspiring and fascinating.  And for my readers, I highly recommend you pick up Jake's book...it's an incredible story and a very enjoyable read. Thanks again, Jake!

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